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Brannon Howse: So Matt DePerno, he became he was running to be governor of Michigan. I believe he probably won, but it was stolen through cheating. But I contacted him today because of the fact I did see this article about what is happening there in Michigan. And that is a law that I believe could criminalize Christianity, could criminalize a pastor saying certain things from the pulpit or over the airwaves. So I sent the article and a link to the legislation over to attorney Matt DePerno. And Matt joins us tonight to discuss this. Michigan prepares to gut free speech with new, quote, hate crime legislation. There's the headline over at Worldview report.com. Guys, show that would you? That's our aggregated news site Worldview Report.com. So if you want to find this article, you can do that right there by going to Worldview Report.com. So we click on that article and there it is. Michigan prepares to gut free Speech With Hate Crime Legislation. Joining me now is Matt. Matt, welcome to the broadcast. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me on.

Matt DePerno: Brandon and I ran for attorney general.

Brannon Howse: What did I say? What did I say?

Matt DePerno: You said, Governor.

Brannon Howse: Maybe I should get a teleprompter. He ran for attorney general. I knew that. I don't know why I said governor. Yeah, I knew you ran for attorney general. Why did I say that? Who knows? Why do I say half the stuff I do anyway? Did you get a chance? Did you get a chance to look at this legislation?

Matt DePerno: I did, and I was aware of it. They passed this out of the House of Representatives on Tuesday. It's not well, it's new legislation in in one sense. In another sense, they've amended a law that's been on the books since 1986. And I think that's where we should start in understanding what's happening. So in 1986, they passed a law called ethnic intimidation, which criminalized the idea that you could be guilty of a felony of ethnic intimidation if you have specific intent and cause physical harm to someone with an ethnic background. So maybe that makes sense. Maybe some people don't think it makes sense. Nevertheless, that is the law that was amended. So now let's talk about the law. As they amended it on Tuesday. They now say a person is guilty of a hate crime. They remove ethnic intimidation. That's not in the statute anymore. It's now a hate crime. They remove specific intent. You don't need intent anymore to commit this hate crime. And what it says is if you do any of the following to an individual based in whole or in part on their actual or their perceived characteristics, okay, then you are guilty of a felony. You would be guilty of this felony if it says in the statute, if you damage, destroy or deface real personal or digital property. I don't even know what that means or online property. So again, it's you're guilty if you do something that causes a person to feel bad. And then they add in certain characteristics where they amended the ethnic intimidation they've now added in sexual orientation and gender identity or expression and association with any of these groups. So, for instance, if you are a pastor and you say the words LGBTQ under this statute, you have now done something that could cause people to perceive themselves, to be insulted or intimidated, and because they are associated with the LGBTQ community, you are now guilty of a felony.

Matt DePerno: Okay. That's a radical departure of what the current law was. Now, let's talk about the penalty that you could suffer. It could be either a two year or a five-year felony or the judge has an option to send you to, as it says, an alternate sentence where the offender would complete a period of community service intended to enhance the offender's understanding of the impact of the offense upon the victim of the wider upon the victim and the wider community. And so then they define what gender identity or expression is, meaning someone who self-identifies with a different sex than they were assigned at birth. And then they define. Intimidation. Intimidation now is how someone feels. If you feel terrorized or frightened or threatened, then that's intimidation. So we no longer have a specific intent crime. We have a crime that's based on how people feel. If you talk about them in a way that offends them. So this is it's radical. Say, for instance, what if I went out and did a speech? Brandon and I talked about Richard Levine, Right? You know who that is? Works for the White House, right? Right. Calls himself Rachel. But what if I called him Richard? That person would therefore be offended. And if he feels offended, I could be guilty of a hate crime punishable by five years in prison or both. Not only in prison. Or I could be sent to this reeducation system that the government sets up to re-educate. All people who offend people that they disagree with.

Brannon Howse: This is so dangerous. And I'm going to go back to what I said earlier. In 1965, Herbert Marcuse, the cultural Marxist, Herbert Marcuse, who coined the phrase Make love, not war. In his paper, 1965, repressive tolerance, said, We're going to take on the right by being more intolerant as they perceived the right to be than they are. And we're going to deprive them of freedom of speech and freedom of assembly if they oppose our ideology and our goals and our objectives of the growth of the welfare state. Disarmament. Et cetera. Et cetera. This is exactly what they're doing Repressive tolerance, depriving conservatives, Christians, people of faith. I think that's the target. I mean, Karl Marx said, My object in life is to dethrone God and destroy capitalism. The Frankfurt School openly spouted the source of all suffering and oppression. Are Christianity and capitalism the Judeo-Christian worldview? This this should be the big news tonight. I am sorry for the passing of those that were on that sub. But that has gotten so much airtime the last two days, in my opinion, that it did not deserve it. These people were warned about safety and all kinds of stuff and did what they did. And they, you know, bad ideas. You know, your your your ideas matter. They have consequences. And I know it's a news story, but it has gotten wall-to-wall coverage when we should be talking about the FBI, the DOJ, the IRS involved in covering up crimes and committing crimes. Therefore, to keep and help Joe Biden stay and get into office. We should be covering this in Michigan. There are so many stories that should be out there that are a serious threat to our constitutional way of life. And Matt, you as an attorney who ran for attorney general in Michigan, I don't have to tell you, you're an expert on the Constitution. If you have no freedom of speech, First Amendment, freedom of speech, you have no freedom of religion. You have no freedom of religion. Then all the other freedoms start to collapse with it. This is a huge story tonight, and I don't know many people covering it.

Matt DePerno: No, it's it is huge. Now, think about my race for attorney general. My opponent, Dana Nessel, the attorney general in Michigan, you know, ran on a platform of putting a drag queen in every classroom. We had a big issue throughout the state regarding parental rights and parents' rights to be in charge of their children's education. We had we talked a lot about removing pornography from school libraries. Now, you go back to that and think about all those speeches I gave where we talked about these issues. Under this statute, arguably, every one of them would have been criminal. You talk about parents going to school board meetings and speaking out against the LGBT community coming into their schools. They speak out against pornography in schools. They speak out against the schools, grooming their children. All of those things would now become hate crimes under this statute. And all of those parents would be guilty of a felony. What is that amount to? It amounts to terrorizing those parents into not going to school board meetings and not speaking out. It criminalizes conservative pastors, and parents. Right. Um, community activists under this proposed statute, intimidate and harass will mean whatever the victim or the authorities want it to mean. It can be redefined based on who the prosecutor is. The focus, again, is on how the victim feels rather than a clearly defined criminal act. And it's ridiculously vague and very subjective. For those reasons, I believe it will ultimately be challenged on constitutional grounds. But the absence of intent in this statute that I took out, how they removed actual intent from the prior law that they amended, that absence of intent makes no difference. Now, under the law, you are guilty of the crime because the victim feels uncomfortable. Um, this is of the house.

Brannon Howse: This is passed the house. It's headed to the Senate. Is it likely to pass in the Senate?

Matt DePerno: Oh, no question. It'll pass in the Senate. The Senate is Democrat-controlled and also in the House, there were three Republicans that voted for this bill. So, you know, the Democrats are claiming they got bipartisan support for this. It will pass the Senate. The governor, Governor Whitmer will sign it. This will be the law. We are now criminalizing speech. The represented who introduced this bill, a Democrat. He stated we are not criminalizing hate. That's what he said. He said we are criminalizing hate when it dovetails in a criminal act. So understand that. Circular reasoning. Exactly reasoning. We are criminalizing hate when it dovetails with a criminal act. That new criminal act being what they define as hate speech. So yes, they are criminalizing what they define as hate speech.

Brannon Howse: Among others. The legislation is backed by Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel, who you ran against, who's been slammed as a Soviet-style tyrant on several occasions and dubbed, quote, the lesbian terror of Michigan, end quote. Is that is that something she's been called? Who calls her that? Is she a public about her sexuality like this?

Matt DePerno: Oh, very much so. You know, so, you know, she used to in prior election cycles, she had a campaign ad where she in her campaign ad, she said, vote for me. I am the candidate who will not show you my penis. Wow. That was. Was her campaign ad, so some of the stuff she does is completely outrageous. The things she says are outrageous. And, you know, contrary think to what you just read in Michigan media, she's viewed as a lovable figure. Right? That's how they define her. But this proposed statute that the Senate will sign is completely inconsistent with fundamental principles of constitutional good governance. It is outrageous. And make no mistake about it, what they are trying to do here is either send you to prison. If people feel bad about what you say, which amounts to shutting you down. Christians now speaking out against homosexuality will be a crime. And in the alternative, they can send you to the Soviet-style dissident re-education camps. That's what we're going to have in Michigan. This is outrageous and people need to fight against this law.

Brannon Howse: So in closing, let me ask you this, counselor. I'm on 63 Christian stations nationwide and have been for many, many, many, many years. One of them or at least one of them, if not more than one, is a humongous station in Michigan. What could they do to someone like me in Tennessee that broadcasts into Michigan? Well, could they have me extradited and put in one of their concentration reeducation camps or find me or charge me criminally and have me extradited from Tennessee? If I say something down here, They don't like the broadcast in Michigan now.

Matt DePerno: Oh, absolutely. Think they can. Because if you say something and again, no specific intent is required, but it is a hate crime if the person intentionally does one of the following to an individual based on perceived characteristics. If you intimidate that person, which is unknown, what that means, right? If you damage them digitally somehow we don't know what that means or if they actually or perceived in some way, if they perceive what you say to be offensive or threatening to them and they fall into one of these categories regarding sexual orientation or gender identity or expression or are affiliated with such a group. So if you just say LGBTQ. And then people who are affiliated with those groups could have a cause of action against you. This law also provides for civil penalties. They can sue you in court for damages. And you would can also be guilty or sent to prison for up to five years or sent to re-education camps.

Brannon Howse: I want to make it very clear in closing then. For those who say, well, I don't live in Michigan, so I don't care. What you're saying is this becomes a threat to a Christian broadcaster like myself living in broadcasting from Tennessee, but has picked up on Christian radio in Michigan. I could be criminally charged in Michigan.

Matt DePerno: Yes, you can be criminally charged. If you say, for instance, that a man is a man and a woman is a woman and that broadcast reaches Michigan. You can be criminally charged. I think the concerns with this statute are the the you know, and the are the potential impact of invading free speech and the broad interpretation of intimidate and harass in the statute. I think every conservative across this country has to worry that this bill could have far-reaching consequences for individuals such as yourself expressing their opinions and beliefs.

Brannon Howse: Not to mention the pulpit. All right, Matt, what's your website? How can people reach you and work with you?

Matt DePerno: DePerno. Law.com. You know, the race for attorney general is done and we're back to practicing law and filing constitutional cases. For instance, we got one in the hopper right now regarding transgender students using the female bathrooms in high school. So think about that. Will we be guilty of a felony for filing a lawsuit that deals with that topic or speaking about that topic or speaking in court about that topic or writing about it or talking to?

Brannon Howse: Me or talking to me about it?

Matt DePerno: So, for instance, what if I file a lawsuit and come on your show and talk about those issues, and someone within the state of Michigan feels offended? Do I, as an attorney now am I subject to criminal prosecution and reeducation camps? Do I not have the right to bring grievances under the Constitution against the government, or is that now going to be precluded under these statutes? This is entirely unconstitutional and it has to be stopped.

Brannon Howse: Law.com Correct.

Matt DePerno: That's correct.

Brannon Howse: And Law.com.

Matt DePerno: Did you get it? Yep. Yeah. Is anyone out there who wants to talk about these issues? Give me a call.

Brannon Howse: Yeah, well, we're going to be getting you on more often. I knew you were the right guy to call tonight. And I must tell you, you did a lot of research from the time I hung up until the time we just went on the air. I know your time is valuable. It's a public service that you're offering to all of us. So thank you. I mean, you are extremely articulate and pointed tonight to the facts of this case. You taught me a lot. So thank you so much, Matt.

Matt DePerno: Thanks for having me on. Good night to everyone in your audience. Thank you, Matt.

Brannon Howse: Matt DePerno. Check out his website DePerno.Law.com.

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